Talk:Darcsens
I added a paragraph about Romanys and removed the bit about Japanese people. Also changed the language used which clearly identifies the Darcsen persecution as being Jewish in inspiration, to make it more suggestive rather than definitive. 1). Japanese Americans were put in internment camps during WWII but there is very little persecution of the Japanese people in recorded history. 2). Black Irish are also not persecuted to any significant degree, AFAIK. 3). Jewish people were not the only ethnic group persecuted by Nazis. Stereotypes of Jews usually project them as being miserly and money-hungry, which does not really coincide with depictions of Darcsen. Nobody can claim that Darcsens absolutely represent or are inspired by any particular race, so it would be irresponsible to make assertions rather than suggestions. I also added a bit about Darcsens being granted equality in Gallia. Not definitive, but the three games certainly seem to suggest it. Darcsens can join the Militia and Military, attend Lanseal, and marry non-Darcsens. Agent Wax 02:12, March 9, 2011 (UTC) *Tim, I agree with what Agent Wax said about "Darcsens being granted equality in Gallia". I think it's a valid piece of information, providing a good insight about Darcsens and Gallia. The game-texts are official, yes, but we don't just copy and paste them here, we need to expand them too. :Also he's right about the Romany people. Although, I'd agree that Jewish people would be a better example since everyone knows about them. [http://valkyria.wikia.com/wiki/User:Arciusazrael |Arcius|] 08:12, March 9, 2011 (UTC) ---- Ok, here goes: 1. The Japanese comparison has been made by critics of the story who see it as an extension of Japanese historical revisionism; the terrible Valkyrur came along with their nuclear weapons energy lances and oppressed the poor, innocent anime Japanese people. I'm not saying I necessarily agree, but I've seen the comparison made in several places; the entire point is that it tries to re-cast a Japanese-looking people as victims when Imperial Japan was very much not so. 2. Yeah, I can't say I agree with that part. 3. There are a lot of Jewish stereotypes; thieves, think of Fagin from Oliver Twist. There is very little Romany-like to the Darcsens; Romany are stereotypically outdoorsy, boistrous artistic types (remember Disney's Hunchback of Notre Dame and the line about gypsies and stone walls?) while the Darcsens are quiet and technically-minded as a rule (there's a strong "positive" Jewish stereotype related to being intelligent and academic; people will often point to Einstein, and you've got people like Jeff Goldblum typecast as a nerdy genius in almost everything he's ever appeared in). The Romany are persecuted because they're seen as criminals, not because they're seen as evil and certainly not over claims they almost destroyed the world; Jews, pick any bad event and there's probably a conspiracy theory out there that they caused it, plus that whole "accused of ordering the killing of the physical manifestation of God" thing. I'm not really sure where you get the accused of thieving part, either; the main thing they're accused of is stinking and being the cause of bad things happening. Zaka? He was a thief, he was stealing parts for his Ragnite bomb. As for equality, the things you cite only very vaguely imply anything resembling equality. Military service? Black soldiers fought in the Pacific, Korea and Vietnam for a country that wouldn't even let them vote, let alone grant them equal rights, and Gallia clearly doesn't care much who joins the military; after all, one of the Squad 7 recruits in VC1 is twelve. College entry? Clearer, but we only know of one such example, and Lanseal is a military school. Marriages? We know they can happen, but not what they mean socially, or to what extent they're honoured; if I marry a Darcsen in Bruhl, would they treat it as valid in, say, Fouzen? What would my family and hers (or his, given Gallia does seem very positive about same-sex couples) think of us? We don't know. And, until the game tells us, we can't treat the absense of evidence in one direction as being evidence in the other direction. After all, in the US, some states would allow couples to marry who wouldn't be able to sit next to each other on a park bench, while other states would arrest them for being together. Really, for the attitude towards Darcsens to change so much so quickly (from VC1 where Rosie could badmouth Isara in a public street without anyone but her own brother trying to defend her) would be extremely hard to believe, and like the one-man tank crews, we should only add things that make little to no sense if the game absolutely, explicitly tells us that's the way things are. Otherwise, we're either going out of our way to make the game look bad (in that case of tanks) or writing fanfiction on how we hope Gallia is (in this case). Evil Tim 08:15, March 9, 2011 (UTC) *Well, maybe you're right, but Tim, try not to be too harsh on people, otherwise you gonna scare them away. [http://valkyria.wikia.com/wiki/User:Arciusazrael |Arcius|] 09:39, March 9, 2011 (UTC) Hmm. Those are some pretty good points raised. 1). I think the Japanese people part can be expanded upon to include what you mentioned. Otherwise, it doesn't really make much sense. 2). Perhaps the Black Irish part can be deleted or shortened, since it's kind of a non-sequitur at this point. 3). The 'thieving' part comes from VC3, specifically the scene where Zeri is accused of stealing somebody's gold watch. I don't really agree with the assessment that Romani are despised only for (perceived) criminal acts. I think that in most contexts, the stereotypes have become too entrenched as to be inseparable from the ethnicity. Mention 'gypsy' to someone and thieving will come to most people's minds, regardless of whether that is true. If the Darcsens are composites or inspired by most real-life persecuted races, I think the Romani during WWII probably warrant a mention in addition to Jews. 4). I also concede to your points about Darcsens having equal rights. The points I made use of in my conclusions were: a). Zeri being scouted to Lanseal, and the presence of Darcsens in that academy. Therefore they have the same military career options, in principle. 12 year-olds joining the military is not really relevant in this case as this is a Japanese game... :P b). Rosie's family were killed because they lived near Darcsens. Isara was adopted into the Gunther family. Thus, there are probably no restrictions to where Darcsens can live. No sundown towns that we've seen. c). Karl marries Lynn after the events in VC. This tells us it is legal to do so. And from what we've seen of Gallia, being the small nation that it is, there do not appear to be differing laws in the various towns and cities. d). Almost all the discrimination we've seen in the games come from individuals rather than institutions. Also, Princess Cordelia is herself a secret Darcsen. It is unclear how much influence she has in the crafting of laws, but would she really condone the constitutional oppression? e). The Darcsens fighting for Gallia appear to be there by choice, risking their lives to protect their homeland. This would be unlikely if they were constitutionally discriminated against. There is also absolutely no mention of institutional or governmental racism and discrimination from any of the Gallian Darcsen characters. Lanseal cadets were even ordered to aid and protect Darcsen villages and civilians. And finally, if Darcsens did not have full equal rights, a rebellion might not have happened in the first place. It is because they have constitutional rights that force is necessary for the Gassenarls to purge Gallia of Darcsens. The way I see it, I believe Gallia grants Darcsens the same rights the way the US constitution grants minorities the same rights. In principle, there is no discrimination, but individuals, especially those in power, can abuse said power for racist ends. Some minorities are educationally and economically disadvantaged despite having constitutionally-protected equal rights. Of course, you are correct in saying that all this is just conjecture and reasoned deduction. Oh, damn. I forgot to add a signature. My apologies. This is still quite new to me. Agent Wax 10:24, March 9, 2011 (UTC) I'm going to call bullshit on the Japanese/Darcsen comparison. They wear patterns that resemble Native Americans but I'm not going to say they represent Native Americans. Also, if they were stand-ins for the Japanese, they would act more Japanese (since I don't know anyone who can do that shamelessly). The Basque comparison sounds more sensible and they were persecuted in Fascist Spain but I'm not going to claim a connection there either. Basically, just leave it as a fictional ethnic group to represent why discrimination is wrong and move on. -- 13:42, December 22, 2011 (UTC) Question to people who've played VC1 I'm going to add a list of gameplay-related stuff regarding Darcsens (the potentials and such) but I wanted to check one thing; does Edelweiss count as a Darcsen for triggering Darcsen Bond / Darcsen hater / etc when Isara is driver? I'm fairly sure the Shamrock counts as a Darcsen unit, but I'm not sure if they bothered factoring in who was driving the Edelweiss. Evil Tim 09:55, March 13, 2011 (UTC) :I feel like we should make a new article for this gameplay element otherwise this article is gonna be longer and longer as new games are released. Plus this is like a back story/lore article and it should only be so. We could make a Potential disambiguation page where VC1 potentials, VC2 potentials, VC3 potentials and Darcsen-related potentials will be put. [http://valkyria.wikia.com/wiki/User:Arciusazrael |Arcius|] 00:13, April 24, 2011 (UTC) ::Well, it's going to get longer as new games are released anyway since Darcsens are central to the series' plot, and I don't really see it as a problem. Darcsen means two things: in the story, it's a type of person, in the game a subtype of unit associated with certain Potentials. It would be rather like trying to split off gameplay information about tanks from story information about tanks in the tank article. Evil Tim 11:47, April 24, 2011 (UTC) :::These gameplay elements are some of the very detailed stuff, I mean like +40% vsArmour, +40% accuracy etc. We could write several lines about the Darcsen subtype of unit but I think it would be better to put those detailed stuff to another article, like you split tanks and tank upgrades. [http://valkyria.wikia.com/wiki/User:Arciusazrael |Arcius|] 12:53, April 24, 2011 (UTC) ::: Discussion of Darcsens and those from lands to the Far East, not yet named Although I believe that the Darcsens do in some way represent the Japanese. http://valkyria.wikia.com/wiki/Shin_Hyuga seems to be a bona fide Japanese. I always felt that the Darcsens looked very Asian compared to the rest of the White cast. Maybe the Darcsens and the people from the far east, that have yet to be identified, have a relationship like the Native Americans and Asians. They are both from the same group but early in history went their seperate ways and became different groups. More cannot be explained or inferenced because the developers need to go more indepth with the mythos and lore of Europa and the rest of the world. What do others feel on this topic? 00:35, December 21, 2011 (UTC) : You know i always thought that Darcsens bare many similarities to the people of Eastern Russia, which i suppose in the context of the game world isn't impossible - maybe the golden hoards reached further into Europe in the medieval ages than their real world counterparts managed? : I also think that the Kingdom of Fhirald is located in this sort of area. 08:59, December 22, 2011 (UTC)